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Mashimo 3 hours ago [-]
I have been to a couple of CCC events in my late teens'ish. Around 26C3.
Over all can recommend, at least as a groups. I used it to meet some online friends for the frist time. Wifi / wardriving nerds that I spend a lot of time with online.
But man, I think I have never been at a place with so many small negative experience with other people. Death by a thousand paper cuts. One older man out of nowhere loudly proclaimed I was Anti-semetic, because I was wearing a Palestinian keffiyeh. When sitting in the cellar in the "hacking area", friends of mine and me where coding on kismet or aircrack-ng, when someone from the neighboring desk asked what we where doing. After I told him he only lifted his nose slightly and with a smug smile said "Oh, that's what you call hacking today?"
At one camp, where there even was an event on photography, someone I met almost went into a rage every time he saw a camera. Not pointed at him, just someone with a camera. Off he went to tell the camera owner about how it was last camp and his opinion ..
Everything just minor interaction. But as a whole it's just not people I want to hang around with any more.
MomsAVoxell 19 minutes ago [-]
I’ve been a hacker since the Cap’n Crunch days, I’ve been involved with many hackerspaces around the world, used to sit at the pay phones in Union Station waiting for distant calls, some forgotten first Friday of the month .. and all I can say, anecdotally, is that this death by a thousand cuts is par for the course.
Hacker culture has been co-opted by a broad spectrum of folks - and a big part of the value of CCC is navigating that spectrum.
I’ve met plenty of folks that are annoying as fuck in this scene - but I’ve also met plenty of folks who are just great.
As for the camera thing - Germans have an aversion to being held accountable for their actions in public. It is a deep-seated fear of consequences born from a culture that literally thought it was acceptable, not so long ago, to spy on ones neighbors. They cram themselves into boxes upon boxes and live on top of 2000 other people they want nothing to do with. Just remind them, public photography is not a crime, and that there is no right to privacy in the public sphere, and why don’t they just smile and enjoy the fact that they are frozen in time on some strangers device, just like a strangers memory they have no right to erase. This is the needed context.
heipei 3 hours ago [-]
That's just Germany for ya. Source: Am German
julcol 2 hours ago [-]
A shame, as a Spaniard my German boss always said that I was more German than him...never sure as to take it flattering or otherwise.
Of course he said if I was to be a German I would be from Berlin....apparently those folks can make a public budget work.
This was around the financial crisis. Not this one upcoming, the last one.
HSO 29 minutes ago [-]
> Not this one upcoming, the last one.
)))
KellyCriterion 58 minutes ago [-]
...maybe he wasnt from Germany but from another country from DACH region? :-D
CalRobert 3 hours ago [-]
Are the Dutch meet-ups better? Wanted to get to why2025 but couldn’t.
hp197 21 minutes ago [-]
They are run by different people, though there is a lot of cross contamination and groups going to both.
I think the real difference is the setup, CCC is in a exhibition hall, while events like WHY are on a field and require you to camp.
In that regard, you can compare CCCamp (what is different from CCC) more with WHY.
teekert 32 minutes ago [-]
I always like Fosdem (in Belgium, very close.)
edschofield 44 minutes ago [-]
I had a great time at PyData Amsterdam last year. Terrific people!
vrganj 3 hours ago [-]
As an Austrian, I agree with this German :-)
derrida 3 hours ago [-]
> someone I met almost went into a rage every time he saw a camera.
The rage may be too much but the taboo on taking photo that is real and cultural normal that will be enforced or made to feel embarrassed for doing (i.e. 'lets not be the stasi'). That's the cultural norm of there and that scene. You visited from the states, correct? Bay area but the guess "small negative experience" - the idea of we are going around experiencing things and our life is a product of these experiences we consume and interpersonal politics - that's very california "the personal is the political" or that it's some how a consumption experience we "have" and who we "are" is coloured by these "experiences" etc (a fish in the water "what is water?")
One thing in German culture I very appreciate (as australian) is the "polite complaining" as in - you know a German cares if they will share with you what is wrong (and then they will have solution) as Australian we just complain about the big things (but never on your mates or people on your level) hehe "the government" etc - German - politely complain (and here's the patch) etc hehe In both cases it's a sort of affection or closeness if they tell you what they really think
it's not seen negative it's seen like 'of course we have feelings good and bad' etc
All generalising of course.
This could I see easily clash with american culture where often it's positivity all the time and it's seen taboo to say something bad - as if it's letting down the 'team' or it must be personal again 'you' or something - where as kinda truthfulness and integrity seen as the thing there - say as it is or as feel etc
Also another thing you might notice (probably less in Hamburg but in Berlin or something) in winter you want to go for a swim - that's the spa. Everyone is naked. This can come a shock to, say, a culture like the US that had the puritans - that people being naked is not sexualised any way. Actually the US because the norm is "naked" = "naked fun" that can lead to perhaps the most confusing cultural mishap. This might be related to photos also. For instance - in Australia it's increasingly less common people sunbath naked. In east europe and nordics - being naked in spa is just common.
Also: new years eve - they try to blow up everything. In a civilised city it blew my mind to see folks firing guns in the air.
Yes! There's some differences.
Saying that: there's assholes everywhere and don't let the 5-20% allocation of asshole influence your opinion of the 80% of the cool calm quiet
Hmmm... this comment is long... I may be the asshole. Ok,
Ciao
pasquinelli 1 hours ago [-]
> Bay area but the guess "small negative experience" - the idea of we are going around experiencing things and our life is a product of these experiences we consume and interpersonal politics - that's very california "the personal is the political" or that it's some how a consumption experience we "have" and who we "are" is coloured by these "experiences" etc (a fish in the water "what is water?")
you might be giving them another small negative experience. you've certainly given me one.
derrida 43 minutes ago [-]
Not sure anyone responsible for how you feel, but I accept you feel that way, and that is regretable! Please forgive (if something I said affected negatively), and perhaps (well ... certainly) I could be better expressing. I just typed it out in haste
2 hours ago [-]
MomsAVoxell 4 minutes ago [-]
Another Australian checking in, living in a DACH country with life experience in most of them .. Germans are averse to social culpability in ways that Australians (and Americans) are not .. whereas in the US you’ll get a neighborhood watch person on your case for not cutting the grass in the right direction, in Germany you’ll get a grumpy unwashed totalitarian who literally thinks you’re gestapo because you took photos in the public park. Actually, come to think of it, you’ll get a grumpy German complaining about the grass cutting too, never mind that analogy.
Basically, westerners need to realize that the war shock is still reverberating through DACH cultures - remember, German’s were perfectly okay with having their neighborhoods ‘cleansed’ of those their state considered inferior - and then had to suffer decades of persecution for it - whereas Americans see themselves as victors in the freedom game, which is quite pathetic because the freedoms enjoyed in German streets on the regular would have half the American nation birth kittens in conniptions.
I’ll never forget how relieved I felt when I first cracked open a beer on the street in Germany. I don’t do it often, it’s not a thing I really see myself doing a lot. But just the idea of being able to take a couple beers to the park on a picnic with my new German girlfriend, and take a few naughty pictures of her, washed away all the pretense I had, having (at the time) recently relocated from California, where I literally witnessed kids getting their heads bashed in by police for complaining about getting a ticket for having an unopened six pack in the back seat…
Australians too, have their quirks in this regards. I’ve never met a more uncouth nation, frankly. The vitriol and invective I encountered, visiting my homeland again, just for speaking a bit of German on the train with my kids, was overwhelming…
All in, I prefer living in a DACH nation than either Australia or USA, unwashed totalitarian personalities notwithstanding. It’s just a more relaxed culture, all things considered.
ulnarkressty 2 hours ago [-]
> taboo on taking photo
Do Germans complain/rage every time they see a security camera?
Schlagbohrer 2 hours ago [-]
They don't see security cameras because there are very, very few in Germany and the few that exist are in train stations, or private areas like INSIDE a business, or INSIDE a private estate, pointing inwards since they're seldom allowed to film outwards
53 minutes ago [-]
ishouldnotbutk8 2 hours ago [-]
Wasn't Germany the original country that forced google maps to censor all houses unless they opt-IN? And faces, and driving plates.
I think they are quite privacy conscious, as a country.
krzyk 2 hours ago [-]
And quite averse/backwater (choose your version) on using debit/credit cards. Which is mindblowing from my Easter European perspective. I didn't use cash in a decade.
account42 1 hours ago [-]
Unfortunately that's much less the case since COVID. Not looking forward to have more and more placed that only take panopticon-payments.
krzyk 2 hours ago [-]
See how StreetView looks like there (or looked), they have trouble being photographed.
2 hours ago [-]
2 hours ago [-]
justin66 1 hours ago [-]
If people feel obligated to be spazzy around cameras why would they go near an event on photography...
derrida 40 minutes ago [-]
the ccc isn't about photography?
ginko 1 hours ago [-]
I was walking about 34c3 with an old medium format folding camera and mainly got nice comments. I did try to avoid getting people in shots though.
pid0x17 3 hours ago [-]
If you live in Germany and would like to experience this on a smaller scale THIS WEEKEND, come to the CCC conference in Dresden, called Datenspuren, run by our local CCC Erfa-Kreis C3D2. It takes place from 18.09 - 20.09 in Zentralwerk Dresden.
It is a beautiful and inclusive environment that highlights not only a lot local hackers, but also a lot of artists.
I was there last year and it was amazing! I totally recommend it.
You can find more info about the event and the featured talks and events here:
I have always wanted to attend CCC in person, but these dates for the main conference only work if you are 20 and single...
AIiscoming 3 hours ago [-]
21th/24th -> celebrating with family the winter solstice
25th -> visiting the extended family
26th -> visiting friends
27-30th -> congress \o/
31th -> celebrating a new year either close to the congress or with family again
Works very well for very long time. Plenty of families with kids on the congress too and you always have holidays at that time.
Im not single and i'm not 20...
account42 1 hours ago [-]
That's already hectic and stressfull without the congress part, especially if any of the preparatinon for those meetups falls to you.
ranger_danger 3 hours ago [-]
A lot of people spend more than 1 or 2 days visiting family during Christmas time, and travel long distances to do so.
AIiscoming 3 hours ago [-]
Perhaps and thats wonderful for these people but stating that only 20 and single can go to the congress is as generic as my response.
The congress was always booked out, its not that the congress has any attendance issues and its not that OP never had the chance to visit and never will have the chance to visit when his/her kids get older.
Btw. i travel too to my family
raverbashing 3 hours ago [-]
Yeah, works if you're 2h away from the venue.
AIiscoming 3 hours ago [-]
Im away 6h from the venue and 3h from my family.
Come on...
pid0x17 4 hours ago [-]
Marry a hacker, and have hacker kids, problem solved :3
vlowrian 3 hours ago [-]
I actually know several people who regularly visit the 3C with their families and children. There are a lot of cool activities for kids from a certain age (10-ish). Even without all the social programm, there are plenty of talks which are interesting to non-IT people.
Mashimo 3 hours ago [-]
Go to the camp, that's in the summer time every .. 4? years.
Schlagbohrer 1 hours ago [-]
Many people who go enjoy the opportunity to get away from family
scientifik 2 hours ago [-]
45, married and traveling from America to go to my first CCC
badatnames 2 hours ago [-]
...or 40 and divorced
Sweepi 3 hours ago [-]
Its the perfect date for people who see all of their "real" family once per year, at CCC. Lots of couples attending obv.
flawn 3 hours ago [-]
Yeah, would be feasible if tickets wouldn't be so hard to get for externals. Ain't no way my partner would hang out for a year every week with me in a hackerspace
pepperoni_pizza 52 minutes ago [-]
Yeah, CCC is only accessible for people who are already part of CCC for decades.
There are some token newcomers, but overall it is a very closed community.
lolc 3 hours ago [-]
In the past it was "The Usual Suspects", now it is "Model Citizens". Back then smoking indoors at conferences was a topic hackers would discuss. Now I'm sure it will be a very serious conference full of grown-ups.
Will not be able to attend this year :'-) Have to ask friends to get me a "Model Citizen" shirt!
2 hours ago [-]
CodesInChaos 36 minutes ago [-]
How difficult is it to get a ticket as an outsider nowadays? I remember publicly available tickets selling out in like 3.5 seconds a few years ago.
utopiah 32 minutes ago [-]
I don't think there is outsiders vs the rest. Either you propose content, accepted talks or workshops, and you can come or you buy a ticket. Everybody has the same "chance". If you miss the ticket but really want to come you can try your luck at the entrance, there are usually always some people who can't make it but it's of course a bet.
CodesInChaos 29 minutes ago [-]
I remember a mechanism where you could redeem a single-use invite token, which would return another single-use token when consumed, which could then be chained idefinitely. Local CCC groups where given a few such tokens to get their members and friends in.
Stitch4223 2 hours ago [-]
I’ll be there and bring my average model citizen CYBER collection in display cases.
I’ve ordered hundreds of thousands of stickers with this meme already. [1]
Holy moly people feel entitled about joining a volunteer run (even things like health and security) organization.
Schlagbohrer 4 hours ago [-]
[flagged]
pid0x17 4 hours ago [-]
If you live in Germany and would like to experience this on a smaller scale THIS WEEKEND, come to the CCC conference in Dresden, called Datenspuren, run by our local CCC Erfa-Kreis C3D2. It takes place from 18.09 - 20.09 in Zentralwerk Dresden. Entry is completely free of charge, with a donation being appreciated.
It is a beautiful and inclusive environment that highlights not only a lot local hackers, but also a lot of artists.
I was there last year and it was amazing! I totally recommend it.
You can find more info about the event and the featured talks and events here:
This year will be the first time I go to Interfug. I found it while browsing the CCC event calendar 2 weeks ago. I have no idea what to expect, especially because the program preview currently up only lists a few talks (but it clearly says it is still not the full program).
Still, even if there aren't many talks, I like the spirit of these conferences and very interesting conversations you get to have with very interesting people who go there.
Plus, it's only a 90 min train ride away from Dresden, so if I don't like it, I will just go home.
drbscl 3 hours ago [-]
> extremely right wing misogynism of DefCon.
Can you elaborate? I thought a lot of LGBT people attend regularly?
pid0x17 3 hours ago [-]
I was also wondering what they meant, tbh, but I have never been to DefCon, so I don't know.
One ex-colleague from my previous employer was there, though, and he absolutely loved it.
FL410 3 hours ago [-]
Having been to defcon a number of times, I truly have no idea what you're talking about.
ionwake 2 hours ago [-]
I heard security failed to treat someone correctly after an attempted robbery, tbh put me off CCC. Not trying to be negative just hope they address this I was kinda taken aback.
EDIT > Instead of downvoting me you could defend yourself, say something chill like "security is better this year" or ask for clarification I have no agenda
749952599760806 3 hours ago [-]
Hacker conference: against authoritarian government, with talk about security, privacy, opsec etc.
Also: can only buy ticket online with credit card and real name, no onsite sell available, your name is probably give to conference administrator for checking ticket, he will probably give it to third parties or keep it for "good reasons", etc.
Don't get me wrong, I like the talks, they are very good. It is just a bit funny for me. They can't try harder to be hackers? Or is it like this in germany always?
utopiah 28 minutes ago [-]
That's the official position. I'm pretty sure, but of course I'm not suggesting you do so, that if you pay with a prepaid credit card and call yourself Random Person you will have no problem. As I said in another thread you can also just show up and buy ticket cash at the entrance from whomever sells them, but of course you risk not getting a ticket. Depends on your concerns. I'm pretty sure if you have a better solution but such large scale event you can contribute directly.
utopiah 26 minutes ago [-]
I'm also pretty sure if you have something genuinely uniquely valuable to contribute but can only participate anonymously you can contact organizers and they'll find a way, regardless of ticket availability.
pid0x17 3 hours ago [-]
Go to the local smaller CCC conferences, where you can pay with things like GNU Taler or cryptocurrency, and the entry is often free anyway, with a donation being appreciated or buying event merch being a nice alternative to simply donating.
I think the hacker spirit is definitely alive & kicking in those smaller CCC events.
dwedge 19 minutes ago [-]
I'd never heard of GNU Taler but the FAQ left me even more confused.
> Can I send money to my friends with Taler?
Taler supports push and pull payments between wallets (also known as peer-to-peer payments). While the payment appears to be directly between wallets, technically the operation is intermediated by the payment service provider which will typically be legally required to identify the recipient of the funds before allowing the transaction to complete.
Also the funds have an expiration date (forced spending). Who is this for? My naive read seems like it has all the downsides of bitcoin and more with none of its upsides
drbscl 3 hours ago [-]
The organisation has to still pay their suppliers, and have to comply with anti money laundering laws
ruiseal 34 minutes ago [-]
The politics of C3 is mixture of older anarcho communist hackers and contemporary progressive statists. So against authoritarian government, if it's right-wing, and privacy to protect against surveillance capitalism (rather than from the state).
So things like bitcoin are not liked as they're outside of the state and money should be a function of a benevolent left-wing state.
Over all can recommend, at least as a groups. I used it to meet some online friends for the frist time. Wifi / wardriving nerds that I spend a lot of time with online.
But man, I think I have never been at a place with so many small negative experience with other people. Death by a thousand paper cuts. One older man out of nowhere loudly proclaimed I was Anti-semetic, because I was wearing a Palestinian keffiyeh. When sitting in the cellar in the "hacking area", friends of mine and me where coding on kismet or aircrack-ng, when someone from the neighboring desk asked what we where doing. After I told him he only lifted his nose slightly and with a smug smile said "Oh, that's what you call hacking today?"
At one camp, where there even was an event on photography, someone I met almost went into a rage every time he saw a camera. Not pointed at him, just someone with a camera. Off he went to tell the camera owner about how it was last camp and his opinion ..
Everything just minor interaction. But as a whole it's just not people I want to hang around with any more.
Hacker culture has been co-opted by a broad spectrum of folks - and a big part of the value of CCC is navigating that spectrum.
I’ve met plenty of folks that are annoying as fuck in this scene - but I’ve also met plenty of folks who are just great.
As for the camera thing - Germans have an aversion to being held accountable for their actions in public. It is a deep-seated fear of consequences born from a culture that literally thought it was acceptable, not so long ago, to spy on ones neighbors. They cram themselves into boxes upon boxes and live on top of 2000 other people they want nothing to do with. Just remind them, public photography is not a crime, and that there is no right to privacy in the public sphere, and why don’t they just smile and enjoy the fact that they are frozen in time on some strangers device, just like a strangers memory they have no right to erase. This is the needed context.
Of course he said if I was to be a German I would be from Berlin....apparently those folks can make a public budget work.
This was around the financial crisis. Not this one upcoming, the last one.
)))
I think the real difference is the setup, CCC is in a exhibition hall, while events like WHY are on a field and require you to camp. In that regard, you can compare CCCamp (what is different from CCC) more with WHY.
The rage may be too much but the taboo on taking photo that is real and cultural normal that will be enforced or made to feel embarrassed for doing (i.e. 'lets not be the stasi'). That's the cultural norm of there and that scene. You visited from the states, correct? Bay area but the guess "small negative experience" - the idea of we are going around experiencing things and our life is a product of these experiences we consume and interpersonal politics - that's very california "the personal is the political" or that it's some how a consumption experience we "have" and who we "are" is coloured by these "experiences" etc (a fish in the water "what is water?")
One thing in German culture I very appreciate (as australian) is the "polite complaining" as in - you know a German cares if they will share with you what is wrong (and then they will have solution) as Australian we just complain about the big things (but never on your mates or people on your level) hehe "the government" etc - German - politely complain (and here's the patch) etc hehe In both cases it's a sort of affection or closeness if they tell you what they really think
it's not seen negative it's seen like 'of course we have feelings good and bad' etc
All generalising of course.
This could I see easily clash with american culture where often it's positivity all the time and it's seen taboo to say something bad - as if it's letting down the 'team' or it must be personal again 'you' or something - where as kinda truthfulness and integrity seen as the thing there - say as it is or as feel etc
Also another thing you might notice (probably less in Hamburg but in Berlin or something) in winter you want to go for a swim - that's the spa. Everyone is naked. This can come a shock to, say, a culture like the US that had the puritans - that people being naked is not sexualised any way. Actually the US because the norm is "naked" = "naked fun" that can lead to perhaps the most confusing cultural mishap. This might be related to photos also. For instance - in Australia it's increasingly less common people sunbath naked. In east europe and nordics - being naked in spa is just common.
Also: new years eve - they try to blow up everything. In a civilised city it blew my mind to see folks firing guns in the air.
Yes! There's some differences.
Saying that: there's assholes everywhere and don't let the 5-20% allocation of asshole influence your opinion of the 80% of the cool calm quiet
Hmmm... this comment is long... I may be the asshole. Ok,
Ciao
you might be giving them another small negative experience. you've certainly given me one.
Basically, westerners need to realize that the war shock is still reverberating through DACH cultures - remember, German’s were perfectly okay with having their neighborhoods ‘cleansed’ of those their state considered inferior - and then had to suffer decades of persecution for it - whereas Americans see themselves as victors in the freedom game, which is quite pathetic because the freedoms enjoyed in German streets on the regular would have half the American nation birth kittens in conniptions.
I’ll never forget how relieved I felt when I first cracked open a beer on the street in Germany. I don’t do it often, it’s not a thing I really see myself doing a lot. But just the idea of being able to take a couple beers to the park on a picnic with my new German girlfriend, and take a few naughty pictures of her, washed away all the pretense I had, having (at the time) recently relocated from California, where I literally witnessed kids getting their heads bashed in by police for complaining about getting a ticket for having an unopened six pack in the back seat…
Australians too, have their quirks in this regards. I’ve never met a more uncouth nation, frankly. The vitriol and invective I encountered, visiting my homeland again, just for speaking a bit of German on the train with my kids, was overwhelming…
All in, I prefer living in a DACH nation than either Australia or USA, unwashed totalitarian personalities notwithstanding. It’s just a more relaxed culture, all things considered.
Do Germans complain/rage every time they see a security camera?
I think they are quite privacy conscious, as a country.
It is a beautiful and inclusive environment that highlights not only a lot local hackers, but also a lot of artists.
I was there last year and it was amazing! I totally recommend it.
You can find more info about the event and the featured talks and events here:
https://talks.datenspuren.de/ds26/talk/
https://datenspuren.de/2026/#start
27-30th -> congress \o/
31th -> celebrating a new year either close to the congress or with family again
Works very well for very long time. Plenty of families with kids on the congress too and you always have holidays at that time.
Im not single and i'm not 20...
The congress was always booked out, its not that the congress has any attendance issues and its not that OP never had the chance to visit and never will have the chance to visit when his/her kids get older.
Btw. i travel too to my family
Come on...
There are some token newcomers, but overall it is a very closed community.
Will not be able to attend this year :'-) Have to ask friends to get me a "Model Citizen" shirt!
I’ve ordered hundreds of thousands of stickers with this meme already. [1]
Really looking forward to the event again.
1: https://hack42.nl/wiki/Groupbuy_cyberstickers_2024
Link to Cliff's talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=656058JxTM0
https://media.ccc.de/v/ho26-124-vom-hacker-zum-spion-die-ges...
It is a beautiful and inclusive environment that highlights not only a lot local hackers, but also a lot of artists.
I was there last year and it was amazing! I totally recommend it.
You can find more info about the event and the featured talks and events here:
https://talks.datenspuren.de/ds26/talk/
https://datenspuren.de/2026/#start
https://interfug.de/
Still, even if there aren't many talks, I like the spirit of these conferences and very interesting conversations you get to have with very interesting people who go there.
Plus, it's only a 90 min train ride away from Dresden, so if I don't like it, I will just go home.
Can you elaborate? I thought a lot of LGBT people attend regularly?
One ex-colleague from my previous employer was there, though, and he absolutely loved it.
EDIT > Instead of downvoting me you could defend yourself, say something chill like "security is better this year" or ask for clarification I have no agenda
Also: can only buy ticket online with credit card and real name, no onsite sell available, your name is probably give to conference administrator for checking ticket, he will probably give it to third parties or keep it for "good reasons", etc.
Don't get me wrong, I like the talks, they are very good. It is just a bit funny for me. They can't try harder to be hackers? Or is it like this in germany always?
I think the hacker spirit is definitely alive & kicking in those smaller CCC events.
> Can I send money to my friends with Taler? Taler supports push and pull payments between wallets (also known as peer-to-peer payments). While the payment appears to be directly between wallets, technically the operation is intermediated by the payment service provider which will typically be legally required to identify the recipient of the funds before allowing the transaction to complete.
Also the funds have an expiration date (forced spending). Who is this for? My naive read seems like it has all the downsides of bitcoin and more with none of its upsides
So things like bitcoin are not liked as they're outside of the state and money should be a function of a benevolent left-wing state.